Dear Meg, I think you and Paul are both wrong. There are not evil forces out there forcing or tempting us to do wicked things. Jesus was tempted by the Accuser, the Deceiver, the Advocate, but that was not something other than Him, it was in him, part of his humanity. He said no, and was freed. We also must say no to that part of us that says we can have control, power, wealth, that we can have it all. Because we don’t do that, we have the world we have created, a perfect reflection of our imperfections - the Machine. It was not imposed on us or created by some evil super being, it is literally a manifestation of our own sin (as in, a consistent failure to hit the target). We are looking at the world that our faulty consciousness creates. And if we could only do what Jesus (and others) taught us to do, this whole nightmare would dissolve. I pray that it will, I think that’s what God wants, but it’s not inevitable. We can destroy ourselves. And perhaps throughout the Cosmos many other sentient species already have. The whole of Creation is groaning to produce a consciousness that does not destroy itself, but completes God’s plan.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, David, in a respectful way. I'm not unfamiliar with this point of view. I just prefer a more biblical one. Where I might agree in part is that in some way, we empower the powers by our worship of them—which I see as related to your thought that evil is a manifestation of our own consistent failure to hit the target. Where I've discovered that the view you express breaks down is when one is confronted with actual supernatural experiences of a dark nature. Hard to say that evil is just our collective shadow at that point. Be well on your journey.
“confronted with actual supernatural experiences of a dark nature”. It’s precisely because I never have been that I find this perspective so troubling. I have seen in myself the capacity to be a concentration camp guard or a rapist - I don’t need to look “out there” for excuses or explanations for that. The Holocaust was not a manifestation of some dark force external to us - we, collectively, did it or simply allowed it to happen.
The powers and principalities of the “world” are the powers and principalities that our “world”, our collective consciousness, have brought into existence. Where are the powers and principalities in nature?
Right, we definitely have the capacity for evil within in our unredeemed nature, no disagreement there. If you personally haven't seen dark supernatural experiences that are outside of yourself, unbidden, not connected to you at all, then it's hard to have common ground to discuss that. I refer you to the biblical text on this subject, which is full of examples of this. You seem open to that.
As to your second thought, I see nature/Creation as amoral, but imbued (in the sacramental sense) with the glory of God. By it His characteristics may be seen, Roman 1:20. So I don't see principalities and powers in nature/Creation, at least not in the sense that nature could manifest a dark force or its collective shadow. I rather think this point works in favour of the the idea that there is a personal, external, embodied evil being. When you take Job's story and Peter's together, you see that Satan has to do the asking of God in order to sift or afflict each of them. Again, I'll refer you to the biblical texts.
‘The line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained’ from The Gulag Archipelago.
But I also agree with Meg, I believe in evil as a disembodied entity that exists and has always existed.
Apart from Biblical references, I have been in places where I have felt the presence of evil, not just obvious places like battlefields or concentration camps, but rooms, streets, shiver up the back of your spine for no obvious reason. It is difficult to explain if you have never felt it but I have no doubt ineffable evil exists.
That's a great quote, and I would agree. Looking back at my comment above, I realize it could sound like I don't think we have the capacity for evil in our redeemed state. We definitely do.
Dear Meg, I think you and Paul are both wrong. There are not evil forces out there forcing or tempting us to do wicked things. Jesus was tempted by the Accuser, the Deceiver, the Advocate, but that was not something other than Him, it was in him, part of his humanity. He said no, and was freed. We also must say no to that part of us that says we can have control, power, wealth, that we can have it all. Because we don’t do that, we have the world we have created, a perfect reflection of our imperfections - the Machine. It was not imposed on us or created by some evil super being, it is literally a manifestation of our own sin (as in, a consistent failure to hit the target). We are looking at the world that our faulty consciousness creates. And if we could only do what Jesus (and others) taught us to do, this whole nightmare would dissolve. I pray that it will, I think that’s what God wants, but it’s not inevitable. We can destroy ourselves. And perhaps throughout the Cosmos many other sentient species already have. The whole of Creation is groaning to produce a consciousness that does not destroy itself, but completes God’s plan.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, David, in a respectful way. I'm not unfamiliar with this point of view. I just prefer a more biblical one. Where I might agree in part is that in some way, we empower the powers by our worship of them—which I see as related to your thought that evil is a manifestation of our own consistent failure to hit the target. Where I've discovered that the view you express breaks down is when one is confronted with actual supernatural experiences of a dark nature. Hard to say that evil is just our collective shadow at that point. Be well on your journey.
“confronted with actual supernatural experiences of a dark nature”. It’s precisely because I never have been that I find this perspective so troubling. I have seen in myself the capacity to be a concentration camp guard or a rapist - I don’t need to look “out there” for excuses or explanations for that. The Holocaust was not a manifestation of some dark force external to us - we, collectively, did it or simply allowed it to happen.
The powers and principalities of the “world” are the powers and principalities that our “world”, our collective consciousness, have brought into existence. Where are the powers and principalities in nature?
Right, we definitely have the capacity for evil within in our unredeemed nature, no disagreement there. If you personally haven't seen dark supernatural experiences that are outside of yourself, unbidden, not connected to you at all, then it's hard to have common ground to discuss that. I refer you to the biblical text on this subject, which is full of examples of this. You seem open to that.
As to your second thought, I see nature/Creation as amoral, but imbued (in the sacramental sense) with the glory of God. By it His characteristics may be seen, Roman 1:20. So I don't see principalities and powers in nature/Creation, at least not in the sense that nature could manifest a dark force or its collective shadow. I rather think this point works in favour of the the idea that there is a personal, external, embodied evil being. When you take Job's story and Peter's together, you see that Satan has to do the asking of God in order to sift or afflict each of them. Again, I'll refer you to the biblical texts.
tbc
‘The line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained’ from The Gulag Archipelago.
But I also agree with Meg, I believe in evil as a disembodied entity that exists and has always existed.
Apart from Biblical references, I have been in places where I have felt the presence of evil, not just obvious places like battlefields or concentration camps, but rooms, streets, shiver up the back of your spine for no obvious reason. It is difficult to explain if you have never felt it but I have no doubt ineffable evil exists.
That's a great quote, and I would agree. Looking back at my comment above, I realize it could sound like I don't think we have the capacity for evil in our redeemed state. We definitely do.